Instrument Index:
Other items vaguely musical:
My big tuner: Stroboconn 6T
My little tuner: Yamaha TD-1
Some interesting stuff about musical instruments and physics: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music
I played this horn for my entire school music career, through college. In college, during a very cold outdoor marching band rehearsal where I had the horn tucked under my arm and my hands in my pockets, I managed to drop it on the Astroturf and bend the rim of the bell, which I later pounded out myself using a rubber-handled tack hammer. (I held the head and tapped away with the handle. An hour or so put it back pretty good.) When Jill was playing this trumpet, our extra, for alumni band we bought a Bach 10-1/2 C mouthpiece for her to use, which is what's in the case now. (She picked it from the store's tray as being the most comfortable of the available choices, she hated the cut-down Conn which was the only other mouthpiece we had at the time.)
I never play it anymore, but when we were in a parade recently I decided that it would be handy to have a lyre, which the Martin (below) doesn't have. Hey, it's a parade so I don't really need my good axe, and the sacrificial Conn is much tougher and has a lyre. When I first got the Martin I couldn't notice much difference in sound between the two horns, though I certainly noticed (and had much difficulty with) the Martin's longer valve throw—but I sure could tell the difference in the parade. The Martin is a much better horn! (That was hard to tell as a comeback player.)
While it was 'in play' (so to speak) for the parade gig, what should drop out of the case but the long-lost mother-of-pearl button insert for #2, which had been missing for some thirty years! I remember when it fell off during a rehearsal in high school and I tucked it into the case for gluing back on later at home. Later, when I went to do this, I couldn't find it; I scoured the case with no results, and the band room. I looked a few other times over the years but with no luck, I figured it had fallen out of the case and gotten lost. I had always meant to get a new button for it, but matching the original might have been difficult and it never seemed quite worth the trouble (though that little metal ridge left on #2 was always mildly irritating). Well, now I don't need to! (Naturally I had again put the insert carefully back in the case for gluing on later, since it turned up [predictably] at a time that wasn't convenient for the repair, and of course when I went to fix it I again couldn't find the insert. But now having some idea as to its one trick I looked harder this time and eventually found it: it's amazing how quickly and well that little disc can get wedged into a case corner. The rough shell edge on the bottom was very happy to mate with the fuzzy velour of the case interior.) A bit of cleaning and a dab of cyanoacrylate glue and it was, at long last, good as new again.
Update: Monday, May 4, 2009. I got the trumpet back from a week in the shop. For the princely sum of $32 I had the ripples in the bell rolled out, thus removing almost completely all evidence that I dropped the horn on its face back in college. Since I had it with me, for fun I played it in band after the mid-rehearsal break, complete with the same Jet-Tone I'd used all those years. Umm, yes, it's not as good as the Martin! Sure easy to tell the difference now, even my section mates noticed. It'll go back into hibernation, I think. I'm happy to have it 'restored', nonetheless, and I do want a spare B♭ trumpet on hand.
Update: Thursday, January 15, 2009. I used Bartender's Friend soft scrub to clean off the places on the horn where the plating was worn off, and the raw brass and solder where the various Benge and Martin braces had been removed (both during the original remodeling and when the Martin leadpipe was replaced with the new Benge leadpipe), then used the Caswell silver kit to touch it up. Just as with the euphonium it's not as invisible as I'd like, but the base colors are hidden. It looks a lot better than it did, anyhow.
Update: Tuesday, February 3, 2009. I used Hagerty's silver foam and Bartender's Friend soft scrub to clean off the places on the Jet-Tone mouthpiece's shank where the plating was worn off, and re-plated it with the Caswell kit. Looks better. I also cleaned off the horn's main tuning slide, even going so far as to remove the water key, and shined it up. The key's hinge area was grossly dirty, and the plating on the exposed part of the slide was in bad shape. (This poor horn suffered from fairly corrosive ownership somewhere on its way to me.) I re-plated (poorly) the slide areas. I then reinstalled the water key using a drop of oil on the pivot, and regreased the slide and put it back. While I was at it I used a bit of the silver polish on the body of the trumpet, as I'd noticed that the bell was somewhat 'whiter' than the body since I'd worked over only the bell last time I polished the horn. (It had needed it the most.)
Update: Wednesday, February 4, 2009. Today I cleaned the third-valve slide the same way I did the main tuning slide yesterday, water key and all. The entire horn is now clean and polished.
Update: Monday, March 16, 2009. Bought Betsy's old harmon (actually made by King) mute for $20. (I bought my convertible cup mute from her, too.) I've needed one of these for a long time, but not very often. It's pretty beat up, and needs new cork. It also won't fit into my very full horn case, so that's a drag.
Update: Thursday, March 19, 2009. Time to gussy up the harmon mute. I got out the Harbor Freight doming punch set I bought some time ago, and selected (by eye) the #10 and #7 punches. (They're pieces of drill rod, or something like that, with a ball turned into the end.) I grabbed a broken-off mallet handle and cut its end square, then drilled two holes down the axis, one for each sized punch. (The smaller one deeper, of course.) With the two punches alternately pushed into the handle and a shot of oil inside the mute I was able to work out the worst of the dents in the mute's forward (rounded) edge. The rounded end of the handle was also useful, and a small hammer pushed in the pokey-out bits where a screwdriver had been used to try to push out some old dents. It's not beautiful, but it'll do. Lots of little ripples left, but at least the profile is about right. I then cut out a paper ring to wrap around the dead cork to serve as a pattern, then I transferred it to thick gasket paper, grippy side out. I trial-fit it into the horn and it did grip, so I used contact cement to glue the new gasket onto the mute. The little cup was coming loose from its pipe so I ran a bead of cyanoacrylate glue in it to secure it. It also had a few slight bends in its shape so I tried to re-round it. Success? We'll see. I may have to get some sheet cork and re-do the gasket properly, if it won't stay in the horn well.
Update: Saturday, July 4, 2009. The old neighborhood Christmas caroling gig has been dead for some years now, so I and my brother are no longer playing the Martins together. (He doesn't play at all anymore.) For fun we shamed each other into performing the national anthem before the neighborhood's new (private) fireworks extravaganza. The Martins ride again! We did well enough to get applause, anyway. And loud enough that people who weren't even there noticed that there was live music. (It's a quiet rural neighborhood, but not on this night!)
eBay description:
This was an early experiment of mine, successful, but not useful to me since I no longer play trumpet. I rarely got to play it—every time I took it out for a gig, the other trumpet player would need it to avoid transposing! The instrument is 100% Couesnon, with my cuts. I disassembled and designed the cuts. Music 6000 in Olympia reassembled the trumpet for me afterwards. I've always been happy with it, but rarely got to play it. But the people I played with always liked it too.I bid on (and lost) a number of the cheaper C trumpets before I landed this one. Few of those would have been immediately playable, I actually think I got nearly the perfect horn for my needs. I like the long bell and lead pipe, those make it look a little bit like a heraldic instrument. (I'd rather it was silver than lacquer, but I'm sure that had it been silver I couldn't have ended up with it.) The case latch springs are missing or broken, that's a bit awkward. I wedged some spring steel leaves in behind them, this works well enough that you don't have to pick the latches open with your fingernails anymore, but they do tend to fall out if you're not careful. One handle was missing, but I found a thrift shop suitcase that had almost exactly the same handle. I spray-painted it brown and put it on the faux-ligator case, so now it's very usable. I've been thinking about painting the whole case black, but I haven't done this yet.It's early work of mine. But I'm now a repair tech with 9 years' experience. It's worth the money for the talking value and the fun you'll have! Comes with the pictured case which is a modified Olds Alto Sax case, with a proper Trumpet insert. Believe me, this won't go anywhere in this old thing! Very safe!
This also represents my earliest overhaul work, so it's generally beautiful. The bell is stamped with my initials [J.C.S.] and the gentleman [W.F.] who assembled it. Also, my initials are on the bell rim after the modifications made during overhaul.
I love this instrument, and it's tough to part with, but [I'm] a tuba player, I just don't use it anymore.
The horn had no mouthpiece, but the cut-down Conn 4 from my old trumpet fits and works, and is a very appropriate match. (I reshaped the rim shortly after I got a better [for me] mouthpiece, in an attempt to make it more comfortable to play. The cut rim is still raw brass, I've been thinking about plating it.)
Besides the funeral service I've played this in church a couple of times for pieces that didn't have a B♭ transcription. I've also played a bit with Jill on the oboe, at home for fun. (Less of that than I'd like.)
Update: Tuesday, January 6, 2009. I got the Caswell Plug-N-Plate silver and nickel materials I'd ordered for the euphonium, and decided to start small. I got out the cut-down Conn mouthpiece and used Bartender's Friend soft-scrub cleanser on it to get the corrosion off the raw brass parts. It shined up nicely, though the rim is still (as it always was) a bit rough—kind of a matte finish rather than mirror shiny. (Not surprising considering I'd used fine sandpaper on it at the end. I'd lathed it in a drill, holding a file against it to do the cutting, followed by the sandpaper. Amazing what teenagers will do sometimes.) I clipped it to the lab power supply, set it to 1.7 V with a 300 mA current limit to match the wall-wart that they sell, dipped the bandaged wand as per the instructions, and had at it. Miraculous. Almost instantly the raw brass was covered with silver. I put a bit on the plier wounds on the side where a ham-handed unjamming had been done (probably by me back in the day), which masked them very well. I then put a lot (many many passes) on the rim, and it silvered over nicely. Plating current ranged from 5–20 mA, depending on contact area. I used up a capful of the solution on the rim, I figured I wanted a heavy coating on the wear surface where it hits your face. The idea wasn't so much to camouflage the DIY rim profile as to cover the raw brass to prevent biological reaction. And, of course, as a non-critical test bed for the Caswell process. I must say that I'm impressed, and I didn't have any problem with black smutting that the instructions mentioned. A new tool for the arsenal, and not all that expensive. About $20 for everything I used today, and of course the wand is not really a wear item and there is a lot of silver solution left. Considering what mouthpieces cost, even used ones, this job alone nearly paid for the kit, assuming it holds up and can be considered to have 'rescued' this mouthpiece. It looks really good, at least when compared to before. (No, it's not 'shiny new', it's 'shiny used', which is a different thing but no less exciting.)
Pictures (After, unfortunately there are no Befores):
| Conn 4 Pliers bite, plated | (Dark, but compare gouge and shank's colors) | |
| Conn 4 Rim, plated | (Blue color is from computer monitor. Can still see a bit of raw brass in throat.) | |
| Couesnon C trumpet | (Dark.) | |
| Couesnon's case |
Update: Wednesday, February 4, 2009. I used a couple of dots of Shoe Goo to tack the case latch spring helpers in place. That should keep them from falling out, though it does nothing for their nasty sharp exposed edges. In the evening I used a leftover rattle-can of vinyl paint to give the case the first coat. (It's slate blue, not black, but I figured it couldn't hurt. I'll finish up with black.) I painted all the metalwork too, I may wire-brush it and nickel-plate later. We'll see how ambitious I get.
Update: Thursday, February 5, 2009. I bought a rattle-can of black vinyl paint today, and a swatch of dark orange velour fabric to cover the blue trumpet cradle. About $8 for everything. After work I started painting the case black, and it looks a lot better. I pulled out the trumpet insert, which was poorly-covered in a faded blue velour that clashed horribly with the existing rust-orange and didn't, IMHO, adequately protect the instrument from scuffing. Only two wood screws held it in (and a bit of glue to the old interior case fabric—that was useless). I cut a length of the new orange velour that would wrap loosely around the insert and stapled it to the back side. I then screwed the insert back in place and re-painted the screw heads. It looks a lot better, and should provide a tiny bit more padding for the horn. The remainder of the new orange fabric is draped over the general area for increased padding.
Pictures:
| Couesnon's case, painted | ||
| Couesnon's case, re-padded | ||
| Conn 4 Rim, re-shot |
Update: Friday, February 6, 2009. I scraped/brushed off one of the case latches and sanded it with fine sandpaper and then used soft scrub on it. Looked like brass. Then I tried the nickel plating kit, setting the power supply to the recommended 4.5 V with the same 300 mA current limit as for silver. Failure! It would put on a bit of splotchy light color, but then it got worse as application continued. Even after a re-clean it acted the same. Disgusted, I cleaned it off and painted it black again. It may be that I need to acid-activate the metal surface, and/or heat the plating solution.
It does play, so say those who can actually play clarinets. I replaced the worst pads with the best used ones from Mom's wooden clarinet (when I re-padded it late in 1997), so now it works again. (That was an experience!) By all consulted the best use for a horn like this is as a lamp. (Though there are some good metal clarinets, most were student models and of little value now. Her family's economic state back in the day pretty much dictated this be nothing special.) I dug it out again when making this page and decided it looked like silver rather than the nickel I'd always thought it to be, so I used the dregs of the Tarn-X (that I'd used on the trombone and euphonium) on the bell. It shined right up. Yep, it's silver all right! (Had it been nickel I doubt there would have been the worn places that show brass.) It could use a full polish, and even some replating, but nobody's ever likely to do that, not for one of these. It's missing one hinge screw, so one of the middle keys doesn't work, one that operates the lowest pad(s). The upper ring was starting to bind up, and cleaning and lubrication didn't help. So I used a little hammer to gently tap its post to increase the clearance a fraction and now it's free again.
The case is in bad shape, with one missing latch and all the fabric fake leather scraped off the corners and edges. The wood's pretty chewed, and many of the joints are starting to come apart.
Update: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. Missing screw replaced at the shop, $3. Not bad, but Jill says that he says that there is a missing key; she calls it a POS. Well, OK, nobody's disputing that but I don't see any signs of anything broken or missing. Maybe it was built that way? Everything seems to move properly now, anyway. Jill later showed me where one of the four lower paddle keys was broken cleanly off its shaft. She says there are alternate fingerings, but that it's pretty crippled as a result. I also found the serial number (S7XX) stamped into the underside of one of the remaining keys at the bottom. Interesting.
Update: Thursday, February 26, 2009. I picked up a scrap metal clarinet key at the repair shop, no charge. Perhaps the paddle can be cut off and soldered to the tube? It's even the 'right' key, but it's bent and is obviously from a different maker, and is somewhat too short to be used directly. He said he picked around and found one for me that wasn't obviously cast pot-metal. Properly attached, though, and you'd never be able to tell that there had been anything wrong.
Update: Saturday, February 13, 2010. I cleaned up the chip in the mouthpiece beak and cut a small scrap of grenadilla wood to glue into it. I used the gap-filling cyanoacrylate glue, and once it had set up I trimmed it and began filing it to fit. (Hardly seems worth the effort, really, but I hate having broken stuff lying around.) The next day I finished trimming and filing the profile back. No real idea if it's properly fixed, but I don't see how it could be any worse than it was with a tape-covered chip out of it! I tried it in the metal clarinet, but it's in such uncertain (but likely bad) condition that I couldn't really tell anything. Throwing caution to the winds I tried it in the Buffet; I'd wanted a mouthpiece to test it with and Jill had absconded with its mouthpiece, so it was worth a try.
Update: Tuesday, March 2, 2010. I saw another "Virtuoso" sell on Goodwill's site for $57. The engraving style was different, but otherwise looked pretty similar. I wonder who these were stenciled for?
The case has these pivoting fabric-covered wood pieces to hold the slides in the case, and one of them was broken in half. I tried peeling back the fabric a bit on the back side to glue the wood, but the cyanoacrylate glue wouldn't set up right, and wasn't strong enough to hold together the boxwood. Rather than admit defeat I peeled the fabric entirely off (the old glue was powdering) and cut a new piece of walnut from a bit of a branch I had in the shop, and shaped it to match the original. I then used contact cement to put the fabric on the new piece. While that was drying I used cyanoacrylate glue to put a sliver of wood into the hogged-out pivot screw hole in the case. When everything had dried I put it all back together and it worked properly, and looked original. (The walnut is stronger than the original wood, of course.)
The slip joint between the slide and the bell should have been called a slop joint. I had a look at it and determined that the joint had spread over the years and the slide assembly was bottoming out against the pipe inside the tapered socket, thus not fitting tightly. I filed off some of the male end of the slide assembly's taper so that it would jam a little farther into the socket, now it fits well and doesn't fall apart. The slide, however, has never gotten as smooth as it should be, even with a lot of working, oiling, steel-wooling, and cleaning.
The slide has a solder joint that's coming apart, but it usually stays jammed together. The plating is worn in spots, I may try touching it up.
Update: Thursday, January 15, 2009. I used Bartender's Friend soft scrub to clean off the places on the horn where the plating was worn off, and the filed face of the slip joint, then used the Caswell silver kit to touch it up. Just as with the euphonium, it's not as invisible as I'd like, but the brass color is hidden. It looks a lot better than it did, anyhow. I tried a bit of soft scrub down in the slide as a lapping compound, but aside from getting out a bunch of grunge in the bow (I used the trumpet snake to clean it out) it didn't help. The slide is still rough.
More about this model horn from an on-line forum:
- The [friend's] horn is a Holton Special made in 1915. It is a small bore tenor in sterling silver, no lacquer, with a gold wash on the inside of the bell. There is quite a bit of engraving on the bell. The slide and bell sections mate by a pressure fit (no latch or screw fittings). The inner slide is very interesting. It appears to have copper "races" fitted at the end of each tube that the outers run on. I haven't seen this type of treatment before.
Also, there are two initials that appear on the bell section and the slide section close to where the two mate, "LP." Because of this we were wondering if the horn was custom made for a particular player.
It came with the original case, mouthpiece, multi-part lyre and cleaning rod. The mouthpiece is a Holton 37 (very small, it could almost fit inside my Schilke 58!).
- The LP stands for 'low pitch' (A = 440). As new, it would have come with 2 tuning slides. The HP (high pitch) would have been a lot shorter. Depending on the band, you needed both slides back then. Tuning wasn't standardized yet.
Someplace on the horn you should find a single number, 1 through 5. That would designate the model number: Holton Special 1, Holton Special 2, etc.
- From what I've heard, it's a pretty good horn, at least quality-wise.
As far as playing goes..... no idea.
No "LP" on ours, but it's a bit older and has both slides so it's possibly low-pitch (standard) with the larger one installed. The bell section is marked "C" at the socket, next to the serial number, and the slide has a circled "3" on it at the mouthpiece receiver. (Also a "Pat. 10-27-08", but that's not too significant.) Holton Special #3 Model C I guess. (Oh, and it's silver-plated brass, not Sterling of course.) I found another one very like ours for sale on eBay, for $80 including shipping. Newer, Serial #38871, though the seller seems to think it is circa 1910. Missing the lyre, cleaning rod, and extra tuning slide, but from the looks of it it still would have been the better deal! Anyway, to gain some mouthpiece flexibility I ordered an inexpensive ($18) Holton 12C, which is the 'normal' tenor trombone mouthpiece these days. There is a second spot in the case, perhaps for a mouthpiece. It fits in there, but just barely. The mouthpiece also doesn't fit into the horn too well, as the modern small shank is larger than the original. Still, it plays, though I doubt as well as with the 37 (not that I could tell).
With very little to lose I began the rebuild process.
Update: Sunday, March 15, 2009. I took it to band (dress rehearsal tonight) and one of the flute players pronounced it playable, and a good student model. On Wednesday, December 2, 2009 another flute player, principal flute in Jill's symphony, was over for their quintet rehearsal. I had her play it and she pronounced it everything that it ought to be. (An adequate student model, that is.) Good enough! Later we had another flute player spend a bit more time with it, and he thought it was in fairly good shape except for the lowest three pads on the body, which were a little stiff, like perhaps the springs were too strong. (It required excess force to seal the pads.) The same was thought of the foot joint pads. OK, I can probably work on that a bit.
eBay description:
Vintage Olds Superstar Flugelhorn FlugelThis horn and case are in great shape. A couple of dings here or there on the instrument.
The silverplate is intact. Serial number is 973xxx which puts it around Sept. 1976.
Shipping is $35. Please email with any questions.
Paypal, money order and check are accepted.
This is a great player, It deserves to be played more than I currently do.
Auction images:
| Lefthand view | |
| Righthand view |
One report indicates that this model horn is a little brighter than the usual flugelhorn. I thought it did sound a little bit trumpet-y myself. So be it. (A different mouthpiece might affect this.)
I later found a local guy (named McCormick) who was selling a Bach 9AT (Alto Trumpet) mouthpiece (bought for my Frumpet experiment) on Craigslist, along with a custom Schilke 12F "McCormick", which was a "14FL flugel Yamaha body with a Schilke cup and rim". It fit my horn, and was more conical than the JL it came with, for more (I hope) of a flugel sound. I bought it for $20. When I got a chance to compare the two, the McCormick seemed more mellow and flugel-like than the JL, especially in the lower register, so I think that it was good purchase. I did think that it played a bit flatter than the first mouthpiece, and as the tuning pipe of the horn is already all the way in it's possible that it could be a problem. We shall see.
My community band finally coughed up a piece that called for two flugelhorns (Percy Grainger's Ye Banks and Braes O' Bonnie Doon), and so far it's been working well. No real intonation problems, even with the McCormick mouthpiece. The part I'm playing (F2) is low though, from G below the staff to B mid-staff, so it's not like I've been using the horn's full range! Still, so far I'm pleased.
It was apparently intended to be a marching French Horn. By most accounts the Frumpet as such was a miserable failure. Here is one of the more pithy descriptions:
They are in F. Until you try to play them. Then they are not in F.Here is another quote, however, which offers a slim ray of hope:
Or any other key.They are good medicine. Laughter is good medicine.
I was 'stuck' with a few of these several years ago. Though they carry the Getzen name on the bell, you may notice the name Willson stamped on the side. These are essentially F (or E-flat if you have the extensions) cornets (by whatever name), and they don't have to be terrible.This seems to indicate that the Frumpet might be highly sensitive to the mouthpiece and that perhaps the Frumpet, while crap as a marching French Horn, could possibly be a passable tenor/contralto trumpet with the right mouthpiece. (Not something there is a great demand for, but just what I was hoping to have on the cheap.) One account says that the horn is at its best in E♭, rather than F. (They're supposed to have both tuning slides, and this one does.) My vision is of this only being used to noodle around on, or perhaps as a choir accompaniment in church using transposed music, and not necessarily trying to fit in with other instruments.The thing that helped us was forgetting the horn mouthpieces and adapters—the horns were never close to in tune with these. I had some success with E-flat horn mouthpieces for the horn players and better yet deep cup cornet mouthpieces.
I began to enjoy the horns. They cut through the band without forcing and in the hands of decent players sounded pretty good.
So my strategy, such as it is, is to try out some deep-dish cornet mouthpieces with the horn in E♭ to see if I can get it to play in tune with itself as an extra-mellow low trumpet. If it doesn't work out I can likely sell the Frumpet, that seems to happen a lot with them.
eBay description:
This auction is for a Getzen Bass Trumpet 300 Series Frumpet??Made in ELKHORN, WS U.S.A.
E♭ and F
The Getzen is in fantastic pre-owned condition. The color is a shiny Silver. Has extra tube that is included. Case is also included but after many years it is only in fair condition. New case can be ordered online. Has a few minor dings that do not affect the playing condition of this horn.
Please look at the many pictures below. Horn retailed in the thousands. The winner will love it!!!
Thank you.
Auction images:
| Left side | Left side, #2 | Bell | E♭ slide | ||||
| Bell, LR rear | Crappy lyre mount | Right side, #2 | In case | ||||
| Bow | Leadpipe | Valve body | |||||
| Dented #2 slide | Right side | Bell, UR rear |
I didn't really examine the pictures all that closely before buying it, and I didn't see the dented #2 slide, nor the bad solder job on the lyre mount, nor the small crease in the bell. Nor am I a fan of Amato water keys. Still, its condition should be satisfactory, though perhaps with a tiny bit of repair. (A real alto trumpet is not often found, nor particularly cheaply. One on eBay, a worn brass Olds F-10, 0.468" bore, was $427 for example.)
Some more interesting quotes:
One of the oft-mentioned practices in schools, according to my correspondents, is that of using trumpet or trumpet-like cornet mouthpieces or waldhorn [French Horn] mouthpieces with adapter shanks for the "substitute" or "marching" horns (mellophones, etc.). Since those instruments are often inferior versions of the althorn [tenor/alto horn], using the wrong mouthpiece—especially a cup-shaped mouthpiece—is a guarantee that any potential althorn tone quality will be lost. If the players then try to imitate the sound of their "real" instrument (i.e. trumpet, cornet, or waldhorn) then there is never any possibility for achieving a good tone quality. At a meeting with the horn section from the New York Staff Band, I learned that they all use Denis Wick mouthpieces. The solohorn player uses a #2 and the others use a #4 and a #5. These are all very funnel shaped with a slight recurve where it meets the backbore. The #2 seems similar in depth to the #5 Denis Wick (waldhorn mouthpiece) which I use when playing a single B♭ waldhorn.
And:
The Frumpet: Bell: 8in, Bore: .464, E♭ Crook, French Horn receiver.Horndawg: Had possession of one for about three weeks and found it beastly hard to hold. Its reputation for horrible intonation held up magnificently (the out of tune notes were in strange places, too!). But, the sound of the thing was just glorious. Fat, warm and rich.Mputerba: These pictures show a Frumpet with the E♭ crook installed, which (at least on my horn) is the proper choice compared to the F crook. In F, the third partial is so sharp that it is closer to C♯ than C. Love the tone though.gsmonks: This instrument is an identical experiment to the C Vocal horns made back in the 1850's until around 1870. The earliest Vocal horn had a forward-facing bell (later versions strayed from the original design and came in bell-up and bell-down configuration), used a Horn mouthpiece, but was coiled. The Vocal horns had the same intonation issues. They were made and probably were invented by Besson, although the earliest examples I have seen were made by Rudall, Carte & Rose.
And:
The Getzen Frumpet was a French Horn/Trumpet hybrid that many marching bands used in the 1960's and 1970's to substitute for the French Horn in marching bands. They have been replaced almost exclusively by the marching mellophone in the modern marching band, but those who remember the frumpet will remember them as perhaps the loudest instrument on the face of the planet. It plays incredibly loud. It also can be used as a substitute instrument for an F Alto Trumpet in a trumpet ensemble.
Yes, I'm intrigued. I have borrowed a deep-cup cornet mouthpiece, and we already have a French Horn mouthpiece, so I'm ready for its arrival.
Update: Thursday, May 7, 2009. It came! Looks pretty good, about as expected, though there were two big dents in the #2 slide, and the #3 slide appears to be stuck. There is a pivoting clamp bar missing in the case so the horn clanked around loose once the packing material was removed, I'll have to do something about that. The cornet mouthpiece wouldn't even go into the leadpipe, it was suggested that an older (as in antique) cornet mouthpiece might fit. I noodled on it awhile using the French Horn mouthpiece, and it certainly does seem to have some intonation problems. Early days, though. It sounds nice and mellow, very interesting. Fun.
I measured the shank of the French Horn mouthpiece, and it's 0.300" tapering up to about 0.320" when seated, seating depth is about 0.600". (The opening of the frumpet's leadpipe is also 0.320", as you'd expect.) My reading seems to indicate that cornet mouthpiece shanks, even old ones, start at around 0.340", which is a problem. I found an interesting mouthpiece link: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Mouthpiece Dimensions.html. My reading seems to indicate that only french horn mouthpiece shanks are anywhere near the size I need.
To cure the flopping-around-in-the-case syndrome, I cut another piece of that walnut branch (that I used in the trombone case) to make a new pivoting piece to trap the horn in the case. The original screw was still there, and I modeled it after the existing piece that holds in the extra crook. Finding a suitable piece of fuzzy blue velour to cover it with might be tough. (I have a piece that came out of the Martin's case, but finding where it went to could be rather tough.)
As an experiment I removed the bell from the Martin, and while carefully holding the two horn bodies together put its slide into the frumpet, thus combining the trumpet's leadpipe with the frumpet's body. (The frumpet's slides are just a hair too large to fit into the Benge pipes.) Voila, instant low F trumpet! It sounds pretty good, in spite of the loose fit of the slide, and was more-or-less in tune with itself up the scale, at least according to my Yamaha TD-1 tuner. The Jet-Tone 4B was not very good in this hybrid, a traditional mouthpiece worked much better. The Bach 10-1/2 C seemed to work the best of what we had. And, I suspect, a little larger alto horn mouthpiece might work even better, if one had the chops for it.
I've seen double-leadpipe horn projects before, I wonder... I measured the OD's of our various trumpet tuning slides:
|
Olds Ambassadors are not rare. If I could get a silver one that was crunched in the bell/valve area I could have the parts to make my alto trumpet! (Couesnons are rather more rare. Looks like silver Ambassadors are also not exactly littering the ground, crunched or not.) (It would be an alto trumpet, perhaps, but not exactly like the alto trumpet that was the peer of the frumpet. See this, the manufacturer's 1971 photograph which shows their true alto's different wrap and bell flare.)
I also did try the Ambassador leadpipe, and it worked. By eye, all three trumpet leadpipes (with receivers and tuning sleeves) are about 1/2" shorter than the frumpet's assemblage. I'm sure that can be dealt with.
My favorite tech thought he could do everything I wanted for something over $100. Less, if I could find a donor trumpet. From the chart above, however, it appears that this could be a fiddly business.
I bought some dark blue velvet to cover the new horn retaining flipper. I glued it on with contact cement, it looks much better now.
Update: Tuesday, June 9, 2009. I stopped by Hoffman's Music today, and rummaged through their back-room goodies. I ended up with a NOS Pilczuk 41-59 Accusonic silver leadpipe, rather tarnished, that nearly fits the tuning slide. It's just a tiny bit loose, but we tried a little of their extra-gooey Hetman Ultra Slide grease and it took out all the slop. They didn't have any grease to sell me, however, so I might have to get my own. I held the leadpipe parallel to the existing one for testing and then picked through their box of junker mouthpieces and grabbed an assortment of five that I thought played better than average on that horn, though it was apparent that the lowest register of the horn isn't really reachable on a trumpet-sized mouthpiece. (A trombone mouthpiece blatted down there nicely, but was otherwise ludicrous.) If I can settle on one mouthpiece I'll re-plate it as necessary with the Caswell. (One or two that I got wouldn't need it, but most were rather ratty. There is a Bach 3C, the nicest-looking one that needs no plating and actually the front-runner, a Bach 7C, mostly for contrast with the 3C, a NEMC 7C that I thought seemed to play pretty good on this horn, a Winship & Sons [local stencil] that's fairly deep and cone-shaped and that I originally thought might be the best one for this but wasn't, and a Conn 4, mostly to replace the one I chewed up as a kid.) $100 even for all of this largesse. That was a bit more than I'd wanted to spend, but the Pilczuk leadpipe ought to have some resale value if I don't end up going through with this. If I do keep it, it's still not all that much money for a usable Alto trumpet. The Pilczuk's step sizing is intended for a B♭ trumpet and so might be working against an F/E♭ horn's intonation, but I can't imagine that it'll be worse than the Frumpet's own leadpipe!
I did some research, and surf/shopping, and ended up ordering a Jet-Tone Studio 1D mouthpiece for $20, which is one of the largest and deepest trumpet mouthpieces available. We'll see if it works better than the 3C. I should probably keep an eye peeled for the Bach 9AT, a rare contralto E♭ trumpet mouthpiece...The 1D works, and is a huge piece. It does go down to the lowest normal notes, and seems to have pedal potential (not that I've ever been able to do those). It remains to be seen if it's otherwise better (for me) than the 3C.
I'm not the only one with delusions of Frumpet grandeur. This from an eBay auction on June 24, 2009, where it eventually sold in the $2–300; range:
Modified Getzen Frumpet with Conn 77H Connquest bell and trombone leadpipe.I had this idea about what a Frumpet should actually be—a contralto-voiced horn in F/E♭ with a trumpet-like sound. Sadly, that's not what Getzen built. The original Frumpet, with its huge bell throat and French Horn-sized mouthpiece, has more in common with a mellophone than it does with a trumpet. I decided to remedy the situation. I modified the bell tail of a Conn trombone bell to bring it up to the proper diameter, changed out the leadpipe for one from a small-bore trombone, and the result is what you see in the picture. It can be played with either a trombone or a trumpet mouthpiece.
I've built several of these and loved every one of them, but the one I play regularly uses an old gold-plate Martin bell with superb engraving, so I figured I'd pass this one on to someone else. It has an excellent tone, and better intonation than a stock Frumpet. It's still quirky, intonation-wise, but my experience has been that this is par for the course for horns in this particular range.
Update: Thursday, June 25, 2009. I took an old silver hoop earring from the workbench and bent it into an S shape, trying to model up some standoffs. I'd meant to make two as I'd once had a bunch of these things leftover from some project, but I could only find one earring. It looked halfway decent afterwards, though I need to polish out the plier bites. Anyway, I then used two nylon tie-wraps to lash the Pilczuk to the main leadpipe, making sure to pass an extra bight on each tie between the pipes to keep them from scraping together. Good enough to handle, anyway. I then noodled on the horn for a bit. I'm not sure I have any conclusions yet other than that the Studio 1D mouthpiece is huge!
More mouthpiece info from: http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/mellophone/Eb_vs_F.html
It all starts with the mouthpiece, and the mouthpiece diameter suited to an instrument of this type and range runs from around 18.50 mm to 20.00 mm. There is also the cup-shape, aperture and back-bore to consider."The Bach 9AT is 19.00 mm, OK. And from: http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/specshub/comparisons/comparison_idx.html
The JT1D is 17.47 mm, for example.A Schilke 24 (tpt) is 18.29 mm (medium depth), the largest I've yet found. The Marcinkiewicz E.17 is 18.16 mm (deep). Narrower are Schilke 22 at 18.03 mm and Schilke 20 at 17.78 mm, both medium depth.
I think I also want to try a Schilke 24. I bid on one, but didn't get it. I later found a local guy who was selling a Bach 9AT (Alto Trumpet) mouthpiece on Craigslist, I bought it for $20. Those don't turn up too often, and this one was even local. A quick noodle on the Frumpet showed that it was quite playable, and the intonation was very promising.
I found another fun quote on the Horn-u-copia site:
Patented in 1890, the cornophones were but another regurgitation of what by then was an old idea, which might explain their lack of success. The cornophone is a hybrid instrument, after the fashion of the soprano Koenig horn, soprano Ballad horn (liedhorn), Vocal horn, and in the 20th century, the Getzen Frumpet.
Another eBay auction of a modified Frumpet (and a beautiful job it was too), BIN of about $1000, it sold for about $800:
This auction is for one unique horn. A little background: It started out as an ordinary Getzen Frumpet—you can find lots of these on eBay. What you won't find is a lot of honest information about how miserable these instruments play. Frumpets don't play very well at all—they have tiny leadpipes and use a French Horn mouthpiece. They tend to be hard to slot and always out of tune. Needless to say the Frumpet never really caught on. Nonetheless you find others on eBay touting their virtues....My idea was to tame this beast and make it into a versatile instrument for Trumpet players. To start I had the entire instrument overhauled by Steve Winans (a.k.a. Dr. Valve—best in the business). But I knew that even with an overhaul and precision valve job it would still play like a Frumpet. The magic comes from changing out the tiny leadpipe to a bigger one that still works with the Getzen slides, but that takes a Trumpet mouthpiece. Eureka—the horn plays quite wonderfully now. It took us several attempts to find the recipe, before it went off to Anderson Silver Plating (also the best in the business).
In the end the horn is essentially an Alto Flugelhorn/Trumpet. It plays in either E♭ or F (both slides are included—shown with E♭ slide installed). My original goal was to make a crossover horn that could play the Bari Sax parts in my Funk & Soul Band. It works! I play trombone as well, but this has more bite than the bone, and it's smaller—fitting nicely on stage... AND, you can switch back and forth from trumpet with no transition.
Several attempts? That's a tiny bit discouraging. Oh well! I contacted him after the auction was over as to the details of his modification:
I used a very open leadpipe (free blowing) from MK and a custom mouthpiece from Karl Hammond (master craftsman!). The mouthpiece is for a trumpet, but it is very large with a pretty deep cup (bigger than a Schilke 22). I could play my Frumpet with my normal lead-mouthpiece, but the slotting would be pretty slippery. The large mouthpiece settles the instrument down and makes it very playable.The main downfall of the Frumpet design is there is way too much compression in the front of the horn for the length of instrument. This approach works for a French Horn because there is so much more tubing length. So, the main lesson I learned was to reduce the initial compression, and this is accomplished with the larger leadpipe and mouthpiece. It is a very similar approach to a Flugelhorn.
...this was a while ago, so I may not remember every step. I believe I tried it with a leadpipe of a Getzen 300 Trumpet just so I could get rid of the (unbearable) French Horn mouthpiece. The results were encouraging: it was slightly more steady or predictable, but the tuning was just weird. The primary fingerings sounded like odd alternate fingerings. There were overtones in the notes that just didn't sound right, I think this is what makes the Frumpet sound like it is horribly out-of-tune in the first place. I was actually able to measure and look at these overtones using some equipment from B&K.
My education is in Engineering, Acoustics primarily, but I also have a BA in Trumpet Performance. I read a few books on brass instrument making, re-read some text books on wave theory, and made some acoustic models with speakers and tubes. I hypothesized that somewhere in the amplification train, unwanted overtones were being introduced. By comparison, the Trumpet has fewer overtones than a Cornet, and much fewer than a Flugel. The Frumpet has a pile of them. You get more and more overtones by increasing the rate of flare in brass instrument. This is one reason why a Calicchio has very brilliant sound that projects across a room (frowned upon in the Symphony), and Bach has a rich, round sound that some would describe as stuffy (jaded lead player...). So, if you have a huge change in the rate of flare from the mouthpiece to the bell (which the Frumpet has is spades), you actually get so many overtones that some of them are simply not pleasant (my opinion).
To take the overtones out, decrease the rate of flare. The original Getzen 300 pipe still had the small diameter opening going to a larger diameter tuning slide end. It was starting to sound better because the trumpet mouthpiece has a relatively small cup going into a relatively large receiver, compared to the massive cup of a French Horn mouthpiece going into a tiny receiver. So I decided to move to a leadpipe that was as open as possible: a custom pipe from MK that had as little taper as possible (meaning: fewer overtones).
Once I got the horn back with the custom leadpipe I tried a Schilke 13a4a mouthpiece. The instrument was getting close, much more "in tune" and the slotting (the crispness of the notes) was much improved. Yet, it was still a little squirrely for me—I could intend to play an A (1&2), and if I wasn't super-focused I might get a C♯ or an E. This would only get worse as I played the instrument higher, where the notes get closer together and even more notes become available for a given fingering. This is when I decided to talk with Karl Hammond (the best mouthpiece maker out there). He said "yep, I bet it is squirrely." He made me a mouthpiece with a a very large diameter (outer and inner) and a fairly large throat (again, less change in diameter going to the receiver). I think I paid $140 for the piece. A few days later it arrived in the mail. I tried it in what I had come to call my Twumpet, and suddenly the instrument snapped to attention and became quite playable.
If I were to continue working on the instrument (and had lots of money to throw at it), I might have tried another version with all the previous modification plus a custom Bell, one with a more gradual flare to the bell end.
I was actually able to use mine quite a bit. It worked well for covering Bari parts (not the lowest notes) filling out the harmony in my TOP cover band. I suppose it would have faster, cheaper, and easier to simply transpose the parts and play them on my trombone. But sometimes, Engineering is about doing something because you can, not because it is practical...
So, my advice is find a standard leadpipe that is big and free blowing—maybe a Calicchio #9 or a Bach 25. I'm not an expert on off-the-shelf leadpipes. I think the one you mentioned before is more of a step bore job? That might be giving you some trouble.
The $20 Schilke 24 I ordered from a guy on TPIN finally came, and looks good. At the moment it bottoms out in the horn's leadpipe so it doesn't quite seat, but it can still be played. I had an interesting session with the Bach 9AT, Jet-Tone 1D, the Schilke 24, and the Bach 3C that actually works pretty well in it (though not too well below the staff). They're all different, the 1D actually feels a bit bigger than the 24 even though it measures smaller—must be the rim shape. (The 1D was made from a much larger blank. The 24 actually has a fairly narrow rim.) Early days, but the 9AT is a bit too low and muffled sounding for what I want, though it does the low register very nicely. (It tends to go flat up high, which I'm told is a sign of a too-big mouthpiece.) I'll probably end up on the 1D or the 24, depending on how I feel over time. I waffled back and forth in the initial session, and also enjoyed the 9AT. The 3C just had too much trouble going down and was a bit wobbly going up. (Too small.) (I was mangling the first passage of the Neruda Trumpet Concerto in E♭, in E♭ on Frumpet-oid. [The music came transposed both for B♭ and E♭—handy.] I had some trouble with the pitch, playing in a different key apparently confuses my ear.)
I'm starting to wonder what a different leadpipe might play like. I don't think I'm quite ready to commit to the Pilczuk yet. The horn seems to like a lot of alternate fingerings, such as 3 instead of 1-2, everywhere, and 1-3 for all D's. It still feels like I'm fighting the intonation. That may be inherent, or it may be tamable with more leadpipe/mouthpiece experimentation. The surprise appearance of the Bass Trumpet on the scene has meant that I haven't been playing with the Frumpet nearly as much as I had intended to, so progress is slow. I did buy an anonymous $8.50 "11" French Horn mouthpiece on eBay, just to keep in the case for comparison purposes. (If it's going to be a double-leadpipe comparison horn, it'll need a mouthpiece for the alternative.)
Images:
| Right side | Engraving | Left side |
| Mouthpiece receiver | Mouthpiece inserted | Length |
I did some more surfing, and found this very similar description of a cornet. Based on the 'expert' answer it is from the 1890's–1920's, and when I looked under where the pipe crossed the valve body I could see part of a serial number on valve casing #2. There was a bit of cloth or somesuch wedged in there making it harder to make out, so I used a dental pick to remove it. Looks like 58XX5, the pipe goes right over it, nearly touching, making it impossible to fully make out. (A friend suggested begging my dentist to use his X-ray machine as a way to get the serial number. Interesting idea!) Also semi-obscured by the pipe is a small oval containing "BESSON&CO", a five-point star, and "BREVETE". The following was also said about a different cornet:
Besson was at that street address from 1858–1934; Fischer was in business starting in 1872. So, all we know from the engraving is that the horn is no older than 1872 and no newer than 1934.(They also said that this cornet's [Besson] serial number of 67562 placed it 1898–1903.) Another resource suggests that my horn's date be 1890–1900. The Galpin Society's list suggests 1892–1896. The same source says that the company name changed to "Besson & Co." in 1895, narrowing the probable date range to 1895–1896, which is close enough for me.
Galpin lists a nearby serial number with an intriguingly similar description to mine:
{55414} F trumpet; short model shaped like cornet, Md Fr., second slide straight out, .45x
and also:
{59382} 5-valve euphonium
Stamped on bell "... MEDALS OF HONOUR" / monogram / "F. BESSON / BREVETE' / 198 EUSTON ROAD / LONDON" / five-pointed star.
No mention in the Besson stock books; the instrument was numbered no later than 31 Mar 1896.
[ 2005 eBay sale ]
The highest-numbered surviving valved instrument stamped on the bell "F. BESSON"
{59451} Cornet
Stamped on bell "Chicago / Bore / 50 MEDALS OF HONOUR" / monogram FB / "BESSON & CO. / ``Prototype'' / 198 EUSTON ROAD / LONDON" / star / "ENGLAND / C. Fischer / 6 4th Av., N.Y. / Sole Agent U. States"; second valve "BESSON & CO."/ star / "BREVETE" / "59451".
According to the firm's archives [Besson stock books], the instrument was numbered no later than 18 Jun 1896.
[ Private collection ]
The lowest-numbered surviving valved instrument stamped on the bell "BESSON & CO."
opening up the possibility of a new 'record'. On the other hand, that list has a lot of 'highest-this' and 'lowest-that' entries, some seem conflicting to me.
This is starting to get interesting.
I bought a $2 blow-mold tool case at a thrift shop, a Kawasaki (watch out, Yamaha!) that once held some kind of cordless tools. I used the heat gun to soften and cut away and fold back its interior partitions enough to make a nest for the horn. While it was still warm I wrapped the horn in a blanket and closed it in the case to force the soft plastic to take a new 'set'. It won't be beautiful, but it should help protect the horn until/unless I find something better. It's got a nice handle and metal buckle latches, at least, and I could always paint it black and line it with some foam and cloth.
A local (and weirdo low brass aficionado) expert opinion, hands-off:
Might be a bass trumpet. I could believe it needs either a European shank Euphonium mouthpiece (like for a Besson) or a Bass Trombone mouthpiece (I have some of those). But even then that leadpipe looks mighty short. I have seen instruments designed to use a leadpipe extension. Maybe it is supposed to have a removable extra piece of pipe that works as a mouthpiece adapter. Bass trumpets are played by both trombone players and trumpet players, with wildly different tastes in mouthpieces. Having an adapter makes sense, as does an extra large leadpipe to handle the adapter.
I measured the mouthpiece receiver more thoroughly, gently probing depth versus diameter with the butt ends of a drill set:
| Drill | Dia. | Depth | |
| — | 0.490" | 0.000" | |
| 31/64 | 0.483" | 0.270" | |
| 15/32 | 0.466" | 0.700" | |
| 29/64 | 0.450" | 1.146" | |
| 7/16 | 0.436" | 1.400" | Bottomed out |
| 27/64 | 0.420" | — | Slips into leadpipe |
I then carefully cut a piece of aluminum pop can shim to wrap around the White 28 mouthpiece shank so that it would mate properly into the receiver rather than go in past the taper proper and wedge at the end. A small 'wing' on the shim keeps it from slipping into the horn. Once seated, however, I still found it relatively hard to play. (Hello: trumpet player!) Its shank was the largest/most suitable of the three bass mouthpieces we have, but shank isn't everything. I then measured all three mouthpieces:
| Piece | Cup Dia. | O.D. | Shank Min | Shank Max | Shank length | Overall length | Schilke(-ish) |
| White 28 | 24.4 mm | 38.82 mm | 10.75 mm | 12.8 mm | 37 mm | 80 mm | 45B |
| White 20 | 24.1 mm | 37.36 mm | 11.00 mm | 12.6 mm | 31 mm | 68.4 mm | 44 |
| Holton 37 | 23.6 mm | 36.90 mm | 10.1 mm | 12.3 mm | 35 mm | 74 mm | 43A |
The Holton (trombone) required another layer of pop can shim in order to mate with the receiver, and it was in quite a ways (rim about 2 inches from the bow) making playing awkward, but it was also clear that the playing got easier (for me) as the cup diameter went downwards. I had to pull the tuning slide out considerably with this arrangement, 40 mm of a possible 80 mm (for 80 mm total extension), lending credence to the theory of a missing mouthpiece adapter of some sort. I'm thinking that if a Schilke 40B (22.50 mm) is what trumpet players use doubling on bass, I should perhaps just get one and find some way to make it work. (Unless I can find an even more suitable dedicated bass trumpet mouthpiece.)
More bass trumpet surfage from here:
If you are looking for a piece to show it off in a recital, try the Neruda Trumpet Concerto down an octave. It lies really nicely in the sweet spot of most bass trumpets.and a nice anecdote:
Finally, a story. I do not know for certain if this is true, but it's one of those stories that ought to be true, even if it isn't. Back in the Reiner era [some say Ormandy, not Reiner] Renold Schilke was playing bass trumpet during a rehearsal. Schilke was using a large trumpet mouthpiece which apparently irked the Maestro. Reiner [Ormandy?] had him play a passage, shook his head and explained that to get a proper sound on bass trumpet you needed to use a trombone mouthpiece. He then told Schilke to show up the next day with a trombone mouthpiece.and some other mouthpiece suggestions:Schilke went to his shop after rehearsal, took a trombone blank and made a copy of his trumpet mouthpiece inside it. The next day Reiner [Ormandy?] stopped the orchestra after the same passage. He pointed to Schilke and said, "See, now that is the true bass trumpet sound."
I use the same Laskey 42C that I use for alto trombone. The other finalists when I was in the process of searching were a Bach 22C, a Schilke 42B and a Wick 10CS. I feel strongly that a bass trumpet mouthpiece should be considerably shallower than anything you would use on euphonium. Try borrowing an 11C as a good place to start experimenting.and:Doug Yeo uses a shallow cup mouthpiece built on the same rim as his bass trombone mouthpiece. I suppose you could call it a Yamaha 62A. A number of other players I know use shallow cups on a 50 or 51 sized rim. For me, the smaller cups work better. Pretty much every bass trumpet I have played has been pretty stuffy below about D in the staff. Larger mouthpieces (in my experience) don't do anything to help this.
Indeed. Or maybe even a Bach 12C trombone mouthpieceand:
I use an old Holton 47 on mine. Always liked that one. If I'm doing more relaxed stuff (non-orchestral) my Bach 4C suits me fine.and:Tried a 22EW Bach once—awesome! The 47 feels a lot like a 12C rim but much sharper. The 22 has a wide cushy rim, but a cup diameter that feels like an alto-horn mouthpiece.
Using manufacturer's specifications:and:
Wick 10CS 25.0 mm Bach 11C 24.7 mm Bach 12C 24.5 mm Laskey 42C 24.2 mm Bach 22C 23.9 mm Schilke 42B 22.9 mm Just for reference, a Wick 2 alto horn mouthpiece is 19.0 mm. The smallest trombone mouthpiece I know of is the Schilke 40B, which is 22.5 mm. [At 23.9 mm the smallest Bach trombone sizes are 22C and 22D, the Holton 37 is even smaller.]
According to the liner notes on his Orchestral Excerpts CD, Michael Mulcahy (Chicago Symphony) uses a Bach 15C mouthpiece on his Alexander bass trumpet in C.
I queried TPIN, and got this opinion:
I have a Miraphone bass trumpet. It sounds like your shank may be the European shank. You can google more about the exact specs. [I'm not having much luck getting anything like engineering drawings of shanks. Just 'it exists'.]This adapter helped me: DEG Tenor to European Shank Mouthpiece Adaptor
I recently purchased the Schilke 40B mouthpiece and it works well for me. It fixed most of my really out of tune notes. There is a compromise in the sound quality, but intonation is more important for me at this time. Maybe I'll be able to work up to a bigger mp.
...I haven't seen much regarding specific measurements, just the 3 sizes (small, European/med, large)
My Miraphone uses the European shank. I tried both large and small before figuring out it was medium. The adapter lets me use any small shank trombone/baritone/euph mp.
The Schilke works best for me. I've tried several mp's trying to fix the intonation. I tried the stock Miraphone, a Getzen, 3 different Storks, 2 Kelly's and finally the Schilke. Kelly has their European shank trombone mp's on sale for $13 ea right now.
The Kelly site had a chart of mouthpiece specs, these are the first concrete numbers I have gotten on shank sizes:
| Instrument | Inside Dia. of Rcvr. |
| Small-Shank Trombone / Baritone | .48" |
| European-Shank Euphonium | .51" |
| Large-Shank Trombone / Euphonium | .55" |
Of everything I've seen so far, the closest thing to this horn's leadpipe configuration is the old Mahillon trumpet shown on http://www.78s2cd.com/photo_gallery.html:
Note how far the mouthpiece receiver is located 'into' the horn, and how the bow of the bell would poke you in the face if you tried playing without the leadpipe extension. Yeah, that's my situation too.
Random idea: take a tenor trombone leadpipe (does this include the mouthpiece receiver?) and cut it down to fit into this receiver such that the end of the extension leadpipe mated with the beginning of the trumpet's. Would really need to check diameters, lengths, etc. Getting a taper on it could be difficult.
More feedback from another bass trumpet aficionado:
Very interesting looking machine. Difficult to add much from photographs. Might possibly be a bass flugelhorn. Similar in many ways to one of mine (apart from rotary valves)I was not aware of a Besson bass trumpet but then an instrument of that age is entitled to be rare and unknown. The mouthpiece problem does not surprise me. Modern tapers are either too small (medium large bore) or too large (large bore). I solved this on one of my old instruments by using a period mouthpiece which fits quite nicely. You can pick up old trombone/baritone/euphonium mouthpieces quite easily and cheaply on eBay.
Bass flugelhorn? Plausible, but how would one determine this? The one photograph I found of something called a bass flugelhorn was actually a Chinese creation, complete with the usual hyperbole, and had a very fat bell. (Think Benge #5 flugelhorn 'blunderbuss' on steroids.) It looked almost like a wadded-up miniature euphonium, I'm not sure that I'd take it as any kind of reliable definition of species, but if I were to do so then I do not have a bass flugelhorn.
Not a recital, but I did tackle a piece of the recommended Neruda Trumpet Concerto down an octave (the only way it could probably be played on the bass trumpet). While I was bludgeoning the life out of the first passage (as opposed to making listenable music out of it) I couldn't help but see why it was suggested as something to try: it does sound kind of nice on this horn. This Besson seems like perhaps it could work out. (I found it much easier to play than the same thing on the Frumpet in E♭, in part because it's in B♭ which my eye/ear is somewhat calibrated to.) The Holton 37 was actually working for me fairly well, I thought. I played some range games, and the horn was as in tune for me as anything, all the way from F♯ at the bottom to the G just over three octaves above. (Ok, it's more than a bit thin-sounding up there, but is more-or-less in tune.)
I bought (on eBay) a Herco Trombone mouthpiece of particularly small diameter. (Herco is a cheap aftermarket name, but this is an unusual piece that might just work well for me.) Supposedly it will just eat a US nickel, (shown with a Bach 12C similarly eating a US quarter) which makes its inner diameter approximately 21.4 mm, the smallest I've yet seen. $45, shipped. We'll see how it does. The eBay text:
OK, I'm going to be offering a selection of mouthpieces from my collection, starting with this Herco, which I haven't quite figured out. It fits a small shank trombone, but the only thing similar I've seen is an Al Cass mouthpiece. The [Bach] 12C shows a quarter fits flush with the rim—to get the same rim/flush setting on the Herco a nickel does the job. The Bach 5 and 12C swallow up the nickel, but obviously the Herco doesn't.So, all I can figure is the Herco might be useful for trumpet/flugel players who double on 'bone, or else it could be used by 'bone players who want to scream into the high register à la David Steinmeyer. In any event, this isn't a mouthpiece you can walk into a local music store and pick off the shelf. Plating is shiny and like new, no wear on it at all. I'm asking $40 for it, plus $5 shipping. Immediate payment required.
[If there are] no takers this time around, I won't list it again for months, if at all. This is about 1/10th the price of similar Al Cass mouthpieces I've seen, so now's your chance to own a most unique mouthpiece.
$45 is a bit stiff for a gamble, but that seems to be the going rate for the bottom tier of out-of-the-envelope trombone mouthpieces in good condition. (A 40B will probably cost me more than that.) If it's truly bad for me I think it could be flipped later without losing much, if anything.
Another bit of information:
The euro adapter extends my mouthpiece approx. 1/2 inch. This might help with the bow against your cheek.
I suppose I need to just break down and order a 40B mouthpiece and Euro adapter. I doubt I'm going to find either of those used any time soon... So I did. $47 from WWBW, along with a Euro adapter and a small-shank extension. About $80 all told. When I got it I found that I had a little trouble playing down to the bottom of the horn's range, the Holton 37 is a little larger which is helpful. (I think I'll try to get another one of these to keep in the horn case as well.) The DEG A05-36E euphonium mouthpiece adapter seems to be all that is truly necessary: with it the 40B reaches almost to the end of the horn's bow, it's very playable with either mouthpiece. (The Holton still wants a bit of shim material to fit well into the adapter, as its taper is slightly different than the current standard small trombone shank.) It will take some time on the horn to determine which of the two mouthpieces is superior for me.
The Herco came and looks good. Chrome-plated, not silver. It measures approximately 20.5 mm in the cup, the smallest yet. The cup's approximately 14 mm deep, overall diameter is 34 mm. The shank diameter (small end) is 11.3 mm, or 0.450", and fits perfectly into the adapter. Overall length is the usual 3" or so. In appearance it looks a lot like an old Jet-Tone, and I think its svelteness, like the Holton's, matches the horn's style better than the bulk of the 40B does. It plays a lot like the 40B, it also won't go low very easily. The timbre of each of the three mouthpieces is a bit different, more time will be required in order to choose among them. I think the Holton's a bit harder for me to play, but that's just because it's the least trumpet-like. Certainly the Holton is the most versatile, as it'll go lower.
It was suggested that I check out Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works (of Seattle) for any work or parts I might need. Looks like they'd be well-qualified to do whatever was necessary!
The $10 Bach 381 trombone (small-shank) mouthpiece extender came, and it brings the mouthpieces out nicely. No more interference between the bow and your face, and the tuning slide is at a more reasonable extension. Seems to play the same, so that's good. I don't believe any further seeking need be done, it's time to just sit down and play the thing! (I have been: the Neruda. I suck.)
Images:
| Mouthpieces, etc. | Mouthpiece extended |
...The more I play this thing the more I think it sounds like I think a peashooter valve trombone would sound. I A-B'd it against the Euphonium, and it's not one of those. (It shouldn't be.) But it's not necessarily a 'typical' bass trumpet either. Close as I'm ever likely to have, however.
...I bid on (and won) a Holton 35 trombone mouthpiece. $18, eBay. Looks like the 37, but smaller, and/or with a flatter rim. (It's official, I've now spent more on the mouthpiece end of things than I did on the horn. Ironic!) When it came it looked pretty good, very much like the 37 but with a slightly smaller cup. The end was dinged, but a little reaming with the tapered nose of needlenose pliers put that back. It looks like it had been buffed and replated at some time, the "Frank Holton" part of the stamp is largely worn away, yet the silver plating is intact. No matter. Fit-wise it definitely needs two pop-can shims because of the slightly smaller shank dimensions than the 37, which required one shim. The rim is a little more rounded than the 37's, not flatter, and the transition into the throat is gentler. The cup is slightly smaller in diameter. I then measured all five mouthpieces I've associated with this horn, all dimensions in millimeters:
| Piece | Cup, Rim | Cup, 12 mm | Cup Depth | Rim | Bore | O.D. | Shank Min | Shank Max | Shank length | Overall length | Schilke(-ish) |
| Herco | 20.9 | 13.2 | 15.7 | 6.6 | 6.0 | 34.0 | 11.3 | 13.0 | 42.3 | 77.8 | ? |
| Schilke 40B | 23.4 | 16.0 | 20.2 | 6.8 | 5.95 | 39.6 | 10.1 | 12.2 | 32.7 | 71.9 | 40B |
| Holton 35 | 23.4 | 15.0 | 19.7 | 6.8 | 6.5 | 36.9 | 10.1 | 12.2 | 32.7 | 71.9 | 43A |
| Holton 37 | 23.6 | 16.6 | 19.2 | 6.7 | 6.25 | 36.9 | 10.1 | 12.3 | 35.0 | 74.0 | 43A |
| Schilke 42B | 24.0 | 14.4 | 18.0 | 6.6 | 5.95 | 36.4 | 11.0 | 12.8 | 35.7 | 83.4 | 42B |
The cup diameter was measured fractionally in from the rim, it's kind of a judgement call as to the exact location as things are quite tapered there. The next cup diameter was measured as far in (12 mm) as the calipers could reach. The cup depth was measured by dropping an oval-headed screw into the throat and measuring from its head to the rim. Bore was measured by slipping letter-series drills in, butt-end first, until one was found that would go all the way through, then measuring it. (The 40B apparently had a 6.0 mm bore, except that it tapers down slightly into a venturi further in.)
When I got a chance I played the 35, and it seems similar enough to the 37 that I've got no worries that I'm 'missing something' by putting the 37 aside. (The Holton 37 is going back into the trombone case, the 35 will work well enough in its place here. Just what I'd intended.) The 35 plays low much easier than the other two, but is more difficult up high. Is there something suitable in the middle, perhaps? Yes, of course there is. I surfed for and found a 42B for sale for $20 on OTJ, that would complete the lineup. As 'show and tell' is also coming up I drilled three holes for mouthpieces in a suitable part of the case. (All that could fit in that spot.) That'll keep them from rattling around loose, anyway. When the 42B came it looked very good, in a Schilke box and everything. It, however, bears no resemblance to the 40B, either in appearance or in feel on the face! It's a very different mouthpiece, supposedly derived from one of Tommy Dorsey's favorites, and it feels a lot larger than the 40B, more like the Holton 37. I definitely now have enough range of mouthpieces, especially for my needs, and I just need to get some time on them to decide what I like best. Of note is that I measure the 42B's cup diameter as larger than Schilke does, but no doubt we use different reference points. (Officially it's 22.9 mm, whereas I get 24.0 mm.) I left my number in the above chart for comparison purposes, since I measured them all about the same way.
The presence in the case of three mouthpieces that fit the adapter series well, and one that does not, spurred me to do something better than pop-can shims for the odd man out. I poked around and determined that .410 shotgun brass was actually a fair fit into the shank extender. I clamped it into a split hole in a piece of wood and drilled out the center with successively larger drill bits until the mouthpiece would go in far enough. That still left some plastic on the inside, which helps make up for the fact that it isn't tapered. But the heavier brass doesn't get so wedged into the adapter as the aluminum shims did, and the rim on the brass makes it much easier to pick out. Looks a lot better, too. Given that I probably will not end up playing that mouthpiece much it should be good enough. Besides, I like making things out of shell casings!
More horn taxonomy: The horn looks a lot like the King 1130 flugabone, or like the later-designed (also by Zig Kanstul) Kanstul 955 Flugelbone, though these have larger bores and bells, and are a lot heavier. The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?
I checked with Horn-U-Copia, "An Internet Forum dedicated to Obscure Antique and Out-of-Production Brass Instruments", and so far nobody has responded with further information about the horn. (Or, in fact, at all. Similar attempts to contact the Galpin Society also met with thundering silence.)
Thursday, December 10, 2009. eBay can be dangerous! There I was, minding my own business (!), and what should turn up but an empty Bach Stradivarius bass trumpet case. $95 later (almost as much as the horn!), it is mine. It's supposedly large enough to contain this horn, with some modifications to the support I'm sure. The Kawasaki case was amusing, and even adequate, but a real case would be very much nicer... Six days in transit, and the (unused) case is here and magnificent! Looks very nice, though of course has a bit of storage damage (that was noted in the auction). It was delivered packed in a tenor saxophone box, which caused my wife some consternation until it was explained. The postal worker was worried that the box contained a gift instrument, and sidled up to the house without it to try to avoid ruining any potential surprise. Such service! The molded plastic support tray for the Bach pulled out easily, which lets this horn nestle into the raw space quite well. (The Besson is shorter and fatter than the Bach.) It looks like somebody had pulled out the tray before, probably to see what else they could fit into this orphaned case—I'm reasonably certain this case once contained a factory-new Bach horn, but the case was damaged in the store or in transit and so they ordered a replacement and thus were stuck with the damaged one. A rolled-up towel supports the horn pretty well in place of the tray, I think I can do a bit more with that sort of thing. With the towel in place under the horn it's snug, and doesn't shift around.
Bach case auction images:
| Bach case | Case interior | Case tear |
| Side view | Engraving | Mouthpiece (C on ligature) | |
| Bow | Serial number | Matching neck | |
| Case | Case decal | 1942 Luellen ad. #1 | 1942 Luellen ad. #2 |
There are online C-mel resources such as http://cmelodysax.co.uk that might be of use. Once I got it home and had a chance I cleaned off the mouthpiece and the reed, and used silver polish on the tarnished cap. (It, at least, is silver and cleaned up nicely.) After I got the neck strap adjusted to length (difficult, I think we need a new, better one) I tried playing it and found that the octave pad was too high resulting in squeak-o-rama. It looked like the linkage from the body had gotten bent a bit so I used a small hammer to tap it back straight, which let it seal better. I was then able to (eventually) get something like a scale out of it. Sounds like a saxophone, of the squeaky variety. Perhaps I need saxophone lessons? (This would be helpful, if one were actually serious about the saxophone. Not really relevant here but I liked the writing.)
To protect the linkage from further damage I turned a new 'champagne cork' body plug out of scrap wood and cut a notch in it for the link. It came out a bit loose but one wrap of electrical tape made it fit perfectly. The protruding end length of about an inch was just right to keep the horn from rattling end-to-end in the case. The plastic reeds are, I think, #2 B♭ Tenor reeds. I'm unsure of the mouthpiece as it's unmarked, and the reeds seem to fit perfectly. (The ligature, however, is marked "C".) I bought a #3 Tenor reed (they were out of #2's) to play with. I figured out how to play a scale on it, it sounds tenor-ey to my ear. Jill won't touch it. I'd originally bought it for her, but I guess it's mine. I rather like the sound of it, and it seems to be more 'growly' (in a nice way) than the Vito tenor sax we got later. I intend to learn to play it, after a fashion, but I'm in no rush. I tried the Vito's Berg Larsen mouthpiece on it, and that was really hard to play, and quite harsh sounding.
The number 3499 after the letters B.S. set out as a B lying on its side over a triangle containing the letter S (also called the 'kite' mark), sometimes including the words Part 2A, refers to the now discontinued British Standard for recorders. Reference to this British Standard appears on Arnold Dolmetsch Ltd. recorders made during the 50's, 60's and early 70's.
This recorder exhibits this marking, making it possibly older than I thought. That is the only reason I bothered to record (!) it here.
Back-side markings:
One odd thing: The Angel recorder my wife has plays a D when open, whereas the Dolmetsch plays the C♯ right below it. They do not sound good when played together! I think the D is correct, perhaps there is a reason why this was only 99¢!
My mother played the metal clarinet for most of her school music career, and was always embarassed about the endless "lamp" comments. In later years the family would sometimes gather to play music (and discuss lamps!) at Christmas, so in one of her many thrift-shop forays she found this inexpensive wooden clarinet as an 'upgrade'. (I seem to recall $70 or $90. She wanted wood, not plastic, as that's what the good horns were made of back when she was playing, though I'm sure that a decent modern plastic student horn would have been more than adequate. That's not what she wanted, though.) It needed some work, mostly pads. She balked at the shop's quote, and bought a pad set (and some reeds and a care kit) instead and set the whole mess in front of me at Christmas in 1997. I spent half the day figuring out how to re-pad a clarinet, using hot glue as the shop had recommended, and when I was done it wouldn't play at all. She walked down the keys on the horn and I'd squeeze on pads starting at the top, and when I found one that wasn't sealing I'd take it back and reseat it. Wash, rinse, repeat. When we were done the horn played just fine, or so she said, and she derived much enjoyment from it.
Now that I look at it with more experienced eyes I wonder about just how 'fine' it was playing, since the bridge key was broken. But she was happy. The horn was actually played only a few times before her death, and it eventually ended up with us as the most music-oriented members of the family. I never knew it was half Conn and half Noblet until I looked it over when it got here. (It is apparent that the shop that sold her the pads considered it to be a Conn, since that's what's written on the receipts.) One of the pads has a square of tape under it, I guess I didn't get them all quite right.
Jill tried playing it, and says that the pads are falling out and are bug-eaten. Even better.
I later found out that Jill has decided that it's a decent-enough horn and has apparently adopted it as her own: she's taken it into the shop for re-padding, re-corking, and repair. I had been planning to fix it again myself, and am mildly insulted. (The rough estimate for the job will be about $250!)
...She picked it up, the bill was about $271 with tax, but did include replacing the broken bridge key and a full repad and recork. The repairman had said that the horn wasn't worth that kind of investment, but Jill had decided on her own that it had enough sentimental value to warrant proceeding anyway. (I would probably have counseled otherwise, if consulted.) It plays again, and will probably be her doubling horn unless the Buffet actually turns out as I hope it will. I oiled the case hardware so that it worked a lot better, at least.
My maternal grandmother had this accordion, and I know it came out and was played at times during family gatherings. I remember as a child we were always wanting to 'play the accordion', but she'd claim that she couldn't find the thing in the attic, or that it'd been moved and she didn't have time to look for it, etc. I know now that this was all a subterfuge to keep us from playing with (not on!) her instrument and breaking it. (The unlucky piano didn't fare so well, in spite of the scoldings it got a lot of banging on!)
I'm told that in their youth she and grandpa rode his Harley (with sidecar) out to the desert in California and would party around a campfire, singing along to this accordion. Apparently it was a well-loved item. (According to mom's sister, while it was indeed used around a campfire this was after they left California, in the front yard of their old house—no Harley time required. [Even I remember that house.] That makes more sense given the probable age of the instrument, and its excellent condition.) I know that they were relatively poor, and this was probably one of the nicer things they had. I also know that this accordion was one of the choice pieces when it came time to divide the estate. (For sentimental reasons, not that it was ever particularly valuable, even now. An identical slightly older one [74XXX] in very good shape sold on eBay [shortly after we got this one] for about $180, shipped.) In the drawing/horse-trading process my mother ended up the victor. For the same reason as the wooden clarinet it has now come to us.
Jill seemed excited to find out about its history, and has expressed an interest in learning to play it. We have a friend who plays accordion, I'm sure Jill will be getting her opinion and/or help. Possibly even a few lessons? I think the family would get a real kick out of it if Jill could play a bit at a family gathering, and might not even mind that we now had it if it were being used.
Interesting links: http://1accordion.net/buy.htm, and http://1accordion.net/accordion_care.htm. A bit scary, perhaps this won't be playable? That would be unfortunate. (The dust pattern on the case implies that it was stored in the correct orientation, at least most of the time.)
I got it out, and it looks gorgeous. A bit musty smelling, but not too bad. When held vertically the bellows barely moves with no keys pressed, so it's not leaking. The chord keys were strong and robust sounding. I didn't try them all, but every one I did try played well. Most of the piano keys also worked, but a few at the top were not right. A couple of them made the most pathetic wheeping noises I've ever heard out of any instrument! This one does need service, and according to my reading of the links above, that could run into some money. That's unfortunate. However, if you stay off the top end of the keyboard you could play it just fine as-is, at least right now.
The next time we got it out it seemed to me that more keys had gone bad. I think I'm going to have to dive into it, if we want to use it at all. I ordered a reprint of the only DIY book out there: John Reuther's Accordion Repairs Made Easy. $30, shipped. We'll see if this helps.
Noblet Oboe—$200
D. Noblet wood oboe, ring system, low B flat key. Recent pad work and adjustment. Nice sound. Email for details.Ad. Images:
Body Bell Case
Most usable oboes are much more than this, even for a student model (as this is), but the ring system is a definite turn-off in the USA. I showed the ad. to my wife. She said, most emphatically, "Do NOT get this for me for Christmas!" [OK, so I didn't! Gotta give her points for clarity, though.]
I thought about it for several weeks, and the ad. stayed up. I finally contacted the guy and we dickered a bit over the next few days:
Thanks, but I sold the twin to this one on eBay for $300. I might take $175 for it to avoid the eBay hassle. Let me know what you decide. The world's oboe players are not beating my door down.
Sounds reasonable to me. I then asked him how it played, were there any cracks (repaired or otherwise) or air leaks, and whether it was bright or dark tonally:
I was a trumpet player too, so I can't really give you the tonal quality of this oboe. I was a HS band director for many years and at one point had four oboe players and only two horns at school. I bought both of these horns from a local musician that in turn bought them from EWU as surplus horns several years ago. They were used in woodwind tech classes there, and I actually played one of them when I took the course. At the time I figured maybe I could send these home as practice oboes for my HS kids. We never got that far and as I retired recently one was sold.It has a hairline crack in the tenon joint, which starts under the silver ring and ends at a hinge plate screw. I can't see where it would advance anymore, and am not sure it it is even to the outside surface. Other than that it looks good, no other cracks or pins, and is guaranteed to play and not leak. I had Robin Amend look it over and replace a couple of pads in Nov. The case is original and is functional. I don't have a reed handy to play myself, but if you are interested I would let you take it and see what your wife thinks, or buy it and surprise her, with a money back guarantee if she doesn't like it. The bottom line is I would like to see someone get some use out of it.
My thinking, such as it is, is that it could be a backup horn, for use when she'd be worried about using the good horn. Or perhaps sell it to one of her students. Or perhaps just keep it around for fun, or even modeling for further work on the Oboe del Monte. Heck, this is one I would be allowed to play on—or with! (Not that I seem to be able to manage more than three keys at a time.) This is why I've got it listed in my collection, rather than Jill's. For now, anyway. I'm a bit scared to give it to her/tell her about it...
Anyway, we met at the repair shop. The proprietor looked it over and pronounced it good enough, so I bought it for the agreed-upon $175. (The proprietor checked the pads for leaks, and adjusted the bridge key. The previous owner had spent $40 getting it gone through recently, he was a little peeved about the apparent necessity of the bridge adjustment. He also said that the horn was owned [and used] by EWU until David Dutton started teaching there, then was surplussed—perhaps Dutton didn't like ring-system oboes?) The horn looks clean and in very good shape, it's not all scratched up. Noblet serial numbers are opaque, but the horn's Buffet-style logo is reputed to be from the 1940's–1962 timeframe (in three variations, of which this is the latest). The bell actually bears a different five-digit serial number, numerically one greater than the rest of the horn. Were the two original horns sequential, and somehow got their bells mixed up somewhere along the line? On the other hand, the five-digit serial numbers look home-engraved, and in the same style as what's scratched onto the case latch; the number mismatch could just be a mistake. On the other hand, there's a lone "3" embossed on both body sections, perhaps it is the serial number? The bell has a number "8" embossed under the keywork, so looked at that way the bell is also mismatched. (That number was hard to find, there was dirt covering it originally.) Hard to say what's up here, the single-digit numbers are awfully low for a serial number. It is what it is, I guess.
I snagged one of Jill's cast-off reeds and tried to play it when she wasn't around. I can't play the oboe, but I'm fairly sure it might be leaking at the upper pads, because it really didn't want to stay out of squeak territory unless I clamped down on the register pads. I could get a feeble note out with no pads down, and maybe with the first pad down, but any more and it would start shrieking. These things aren't easy! I think it could also use a good cleaning and lubrication on the mechanism, some of it felt a bit sluggish. There are a zillion little screw adjustments and cork bits that could certainly affect how it played, but those are supposedly OK right now. I dabbed some tiny bits of 90W synthetic automotive gear oil on the pivots of the upper section, I'm told that it makes a very good key oil. The pilfered reed is a problem, I'll probably need to scare up a slightly better one—but I don't want to tip my hand just yet so that'll be tricky. (I could always just buy one, but that's no fun.)
I contacted the previous owner regarding swapping bells back, and he said:
My brother has no record of the buyer. In actuality, he "borrowed" the oboe from me and then sold it before I had a chance to switch the bells back. Sorry.
C'est la vie!
In fact, it did. After 20 years of looking at it sitting in the closet, Jill sent it off to the Laubin factory for an overhaul, and it came back Christmas Eve (2009), all fixed up. About $1,000 for the refurbishment, which included some replating of posts, shipping, etc. (She also bought a $300 bocal for use on the Loree English Horn, so the total bill was about $1,300 or so.) She says:
...although I haven't played with others it seems to be fabulous! I'm really looking forward to seeing how it works in a group...it seems to be very dark (lovely) but I've been having trouble projecting my sound in the orchestra—so this oboe may not work for that setting. We'll see, it's fun to play anyway.
Now that she's semi-pro she really should have a good backup horn for emergencies. And now she does! The real question now is which of these two fine oboes will be her backup horn. Considering that she got it in the first place free of charge, even with the expensive overhaul there's no doubt that the Laubin represents the better oboe value!
Update: Thursday, February 26, 2009. I was at the repair shop today and he showed me that Jill had brought the horn in to have it gone through. Good, it's about time! It was badly out of adjustment, but didn't need new pads. Around $90 for the run-through. Jill says it's playable now. I think she intends to sell it.
It's a decoration in the house. Her favorite thing about it is the mashed and splayed oboe reed we keep in it. (I consider it a failure. It was supposed to play, badly, but it doesn't even do that. So now it's Art! Maybe someday I'll take another whack at it, if I can think of a good way to make its bore conical. I keep coming back to the idea of making a sand-filled stiff paperboard cone to put down the center and using casting resin to fill it in.)
In our opinion this horn is certainly salvageable, having about one soft dent no big deal, some wear. Honors only years can bestow... Of some concern is what exactly it is, so we will do our best to describe: This KING is cased in OHSC [original hard shell case] which says KING THE H.N. WHITE Co. CLEVELAND O.; all hinges and snaps are fine. Horn is about 32 inches long, the bell is about 11 inches in diameter. There are two mouthpieces: EQUA-TRU 28 and just a 20, both H.N.WHITE. 177XXX is on the number one valve, KING is also on the valve and of course KING is adorned by FLOWERS on the BELL. Hey, my new horn friend from eBay just sent this in:Auction images:On the EUPHONIUMThere's no "varnish" on this horn. It is silver-plated. Its a "satin silver" finish with "bright" highlights. The valves are made of brass and are nickel-plated. The dark reddish areas are the brass showing through where the nickel is worn off. This horn will NEED a valve job and re-plate to play properly. All that being said, it appears in good order besides that.
I watched it close once with no bids, as I (and apparently everybody else) thought it a bit overpriced. Next time up (and for a bit less) I used buy-it-now to get it, still paying more ($335, shipped) than it was probably worth but procuring it soon enough to have it by Christmas. (I was running out of gift ideas and time, and I wanted a horn that would clean up well and not be an embarrassment for Jill to play in church.) It came on Christmas eve day a little before noon. Talk about close to the wire! It looked good, pretty much as expected/hoped for. Out in the garage it played for me, so that was OK. I sequestered myself in the laundry room with the silver polish and had at it. After church that evening I went back to it. I got the easier parts (bell and big pipes) shined up and I oiled the valves before I gave up at about 1:30 AM and wrapped it.
She got it half-polished the next morning. I'd bought Tarn-X when we went out for church the evening before, so later in the day I put on rubber gloves and one of Daniel's old knit gloves over that, stood the thing in a pan full of the Tarn-X and had at it with the glove. (Much easier than trying to hold a rag.) That and a bunch of Q-tip action got all the black off. Where I didn't use the silver polish it's not as bright, but that's down in the small intestines and it was hard enough doing what I did. It really looks remarkably good, cosmetically it's everything I could have hoped for. I vacuumed out the corduroy case and used neatsfoot oil on the leather belt and handle, and oiled the latch parts. The horn got a soapy bath in the tub, then dried and oiled and greased. Slides and valves all work well, or well enough.
I'd have to say that I think the horn was well used and well taken care of, then put in a closet to rot for years. I'm thinking about trying one of those Caswell nickel plating repair kits to cover the raw brass on the valves. I can't see how I could hurt it. (It's an electric paintbrush, gentle and slow.) I bought the nickel and silver kits, so we'll see. There are a couple of rub-throughs on the silver of the horn (as well as on the silver Holton trombone) that I thought I'd try repairing too.
Update: Thursday, January 15, 2009. I had another session on the horn, I used the Hagerty's Silver Foam to clean up some of the Tarn-X'd areas of the small intestines, which brightened them up considerably. That is easy, once the Tarn-X has done the heavy lifting. (The Hagerty's alone has a real tough time with heavy tarnish.) I then used Bartender's Friend soft scrub to clean off the places on the big pipe where the plating was worn off, then used the Caswell silver kit to touch it up. Not as invisible as I'd like, but the brass color is hidden. It's all about texture and polish—if you get that right the re-plating will be nearly invisible. Maybe some other time!
Update: Wednesday, February 4, 2009. Took to shop for dent removal. The proprietor was impressed with how nice the horn looked, he thought that in its current condition it might even be worth 2–3× what I paid for it. Due to the curved bell he says he won't be able to reach the dents that are around the first big bend, but the main (all minor) dents should be treatable.
Update: Tuesday, February 10, 2009. Dents removed, $15. It looks pretty good now.
Update: Sunday, April 12, 2009. Jill played it in our church ensemble. A friend (professional tuba player) tried it out, and said it played well, perhaps a bit stuffy but decent. He pointed out that the top slide is actually a 'kicker' for the third valve, and should be oiled to slip easily rather than greased for holding a fixed tuning. (That explains why it was so firmly stuck when I got it—oil fades away a lot faster than grease.)
I've seen just the 28 mouthpiece sell on eBay for $40, and I've seen them ask some 3× that. Huh.
I can't win for losing. Yesterday (Thursday, August 27, 2009) I ran into this clarinet at the thrift shop, and as it looked rather beat I put it down and walked on. When I mentioned it to Jill today over the phone she asked what brand. Huh? That's not the reaction I'm expecting. "Buffet." says I, expecting a verbal eye-roll. "Really? How much was it?" she goes on to ask. Oh-oh. "$30", I reply. "Is it still there? That's a good brand, and worth fixing if it's not ruined. You know I was looking for a good clarinet, right?" Well, no. OK, so I blew it. (Actually, if I'd had a working cell phone I'd have called her then, and undoubtedly have bought it.) Anyway, I dashed back to the store before my scheduled lunch with Jill and it was still there, so I bought it. Turns out a Buffet is just about the best make of older horn out there, and if this one can clean up it might be a real keeper. Happy Birthday, Jill. It's not ready to play yet, however!
The horn was complete, and in a nice-looking faux-leather older (though not as old as the horn) case with music store labels on it from Richmond, CA. It didn't smell, and the wood was largely in decent condition, though there was tape residue on the wood here and there. There was quite a bit of green corrosion in the cracks and joints of the metalwork. The barrel seemed to be cracked, though perhaps not through to the bore. The bore of the horn had developed some white powdery residue on the wood grain, this could be a fungus or mold starting up due to neglect. The wood looked a bit 'dry', especially inside, and a good bore cleaning and oiling was probably called for. (This is a respectable restoration step, though more controversial as a maintenance step.) The pads that were left were old and gross, of course, and the corks are, as one would expect, nearly dead, but its most pressing problem was that the bridge (the between-joint link) was broken off of its key. It was in the case, however, so it can probably be silver-soldered back on. (Somebody obviously tried regular lead solder first, and then glue.) There was a thumbnail-sized chunk of wood spalled out of the edge of the body (the tenon's shoulder) of the upper joint at the barrel end, but it didn't go through to the bore (nor even into the tenon) or to a tonehole or post, and should glue back nicely. Harmless, in other words. The bell looked very nice. All joints were marked with the Buffet Crampon logo, only the lower joint had a detectable serial number.
The mouthpiece was nothing special, marked "THE WOODWIND CO. NEW YORK" and "STEEL EBONITE". There was a "K7" on the reed table, and it was also marked "PATENT PROCESS, No 1452953". At least it wasn't broken. The ligature is a nicely constructed metal one, marked "FRANCE B♭.cl D. BONADE — PATENT PENDING". Jill will undoubtedly replace the mouthpiece with something else if the horn ends up being playable. The reed strapped to it was blackened and gross, she threw it away at lunch.
Jill took it directly to her favorite repair guy, but he was reluctant to work on such an old horn. (He would of course, but he didn't think it would be worth putting that kind of money into it, and Jill didn't insist.) So back home it came. To me. Well, I have ideas. I'm sure I can clean it up and oil the wood, and I've successfully re-padded a clarinet before. (My mother's thrift-shop wooden instrument [Conn] that she bought to replace the metal clarinet.) The neighbors make jewelry, and can probably assist with the silver-soldering. I think I can put a modest amount of money and effort into the thing in order to find out whether or not it plays well, and if that looks good then send it to somebody who knows what they're doing for final sort-out.
With very little to lose I began the rebuild process.
KING Silver TUBA REMOVABLE BELL UPRIGHT BELL.... SERIAL #446XXX ...... BELL SIZE APPROX. 22 INCHES ACROSS, TOTAL LENGTH APPROX 40 INCHES.... Item is in fair to good cosmetic shape, Item has some dings, dents, scratches, and worn finish. PLEASE VIEW ALL PICTURES. ALL of the Slides Valves move and ALL of the Keys press down with good spring back. I do not play a music instrument and I do not repair music instruments, you buy as-is, parts or repair, no refunds, no returns. Item has no case. Buyer to pay $65.00 shipping in the lower 48 states.Auction images:
| Tuba | Bow | Valves | Bell, creases |
| Creases, again | Top bows | Bell collar | Coil |
| Coil, back | Bell, back | Valves, back |
I don't like Amato water keys, one has been obviously grafted in place of a regular one that probably got knocked off. It may or may not be restorable. I'll need a mouthpiece or three, and some kind of bag to put over its head.
Tarn-X was on sale at the drugstore, I bought two bottles in advance. $6. I queried my local expert about mouthpieces, wanting to get a range of maybe three sizes that would cover us. Suggestions:
My guess is that shank-wise, anything normal will fit. A normal choice would be a Bach 18, though I used a Bach 22 in high school. There are probably are a lot of Bach mouthpieces out there. I suspect anything saying it is a Helleberg (Conn and others) will be too big for you, though I might be interested. Mirafone C4 would be fine also. Frankly almost anything might be fine. Stay away from anything saying it is for E♭ or F tuba or for a Besson (wrong shank). I picked up a plastic mouthpiece at Hoffmans that works fine. I think I got their Helleberg model, so maybe I am changing my earlier suggestion.
It came, and it was quite the monster! The bell has a different serial number, 483XXX circa 1973, which is unfortunate as there's anecdotal evidence that the two pieces were normally accoustically matched at the factory. I couldn't actually find anything on either piece that actually says it's a King, but I suppose its configuration would tell that to someone knowledgeable. (It looks a lot like a photograph I've seen of a King 1240, and that's a very likely diagnosis for several reasons. [Once some tarnish was removed from the bell the normal King sheld was visible.]) Scratched onto the big tube are "P.C. 0078095887" and "EBRPSB", that's lovely. There's an "L" on #1 casing, perhaps for low-pitch? (I thought they'd stopped doing this by then, perhaps it's for large-bore or something instead?) There were a lot of pings and dents, but no major collapses. The bell mount was ovaled a bit. Much silver wear. The valves moved, and with an application of lamp oil and the bending of #1's button stem a bit to avoid interference with the top cap they all worked well. #2's button is different than the other two, and is from a lacquered horn. I tried the larger euphonium mouthpiece (with the DEG enlarging European shank adapter from the bass trumpet) but it still sat loosely in the hole. I played it anyway; even with no bell on it made a scale, sounded like B♭ to me.
It needed a lot of work before it would be presentable, so I began the refurbishing.
Research indicates that perhaps I ought to seek out an old King 26 mouthpiece, with Bach 18 and/or 22 and Conn Helleberg 120S as alternates.
One suggestion for a tuba case is: 1800usaband.com's Item #7540, about $220, and it's likely to fit the horn, since it's for a King 2340. Naturally one would check first before spending that kind of money! The down side is that in a case the horn would occupy even more space, which is becoming limited.
I found a Conn [2?] mouthpiece for $10 on TubeNet. It looked pretty good, fits well, and plays OK. (At least so far as I, a trumpet player, can tell.)
I bought (on eBay) a beat-up Blessing 24AW, $23 shipped.
The 24AW came five days after being ordered. Looks OK. A bit scabby, but OK. It should polish up. It doesn't say "Blessing" anywhere on it, so it could be something else. The rim/cup is an awful lot like the mystery Conn, so it might not have effectively broadened the selection. There was a small ding in the shank end, but some gentle reaming with the needlenose pliers put it right. A session with the MAAS polish really helped its appearance, but it's definitely not what one would call in great condition, there are a number of nicks in the rim and such. Probably good enough, though. I also polished up the Conn, which looks a lot better.
Christmas Eve day I brought the horn in from the garage and did some final spot polishing, and played it into the tuner. I got it more-or-less tuned and determined that it was indeed at least a little playable, and all prepped for its appearance under the tree tomorrow. The total cost so far, $772, is considerably more than I'd wanted to spend. Naturally.
She was not entirely overjoyed by the presence of the tuba (due to its size and the near-filling of our music room). I had set it next to the tree and strapped a branch down to it with a paper clip and called it an ornament, but she was not fooled.
A tip on soldering popped braces:
Besides using plenty of flux, another key to soldering on silver is to use a solder with a lower melting point like a 50/50 or 60/40 vs a 70/30. A trick to keep it from running is to outline the bottom braced area with a pencil. Of course, the real trick is to not over feed it... Note: don't outline the top, it will keep it from running into the brace!
I'd been looking at tenor saxes for some time, for Jill's doubling career, but most of the ads I threw her way met with little enthusiasm. (Especially unenthusiastic was her reaction to the C melody I'd brought home!) I'd even enlisted the help of the Sax on the Web online forum, with this query:
Quest: a tenor saxophone for my lovely oboe player.I did get some:(Yet another choosing a saxophone thread, sorry about that!)
My wife is a semi-professional oboe player with a local small symphony. (She got her Master's in oboe performance.) She loves this, but even more perhaps I think she loves being called to be in the pit orchestras of various shows. Her chances of being called for a show go up if she can double, and besides oboe (and english horn) she's willing to take on clarinet and tenor saxophone in fill-in (not solo) capacity. (She has done so already, more than once. Thought I should make it clear that this is already a reality, not a wish.)
However, we don't have a saxophone! Last time she doubled she borrowed an old one of my aunt's, which was of questionable quality and condition. We had it tuned up at the shop, and I performed some case repairs. Call it our 'rent', my aunt was unwilling to sell us the instrument.
Why rent when you can own? I want us to have one, but choosing the right one is, of course, a tricky business. I'll try to spell out our criteria as I see them. I am pursuing this, rather than she, as a potential gift situation. Good gift ideas can be rather hard to come by. Yes I know, buying an instrument for someone else can be rather perilous, but I try not to let such thoughts stop me.
Naturally we don't want to spend too much money on something that'll get, at best, played once or twice a year. On the other hand, she can be a bit of an instrument snob, her double reeds are top-of-the line horns. (As they should be.) The sax can't be too weird, or cheap and nasty, else she can't hold her head up in the pit. (I guess.) I suppose the ideal is a horn that can be handed to the real saxophone player, who noodles on it a bit and says "Hey! Not bad." One that he didn't dismiss as crap out of hand, without even trying it.
And I have a serious Jones for quality vintage instruments, particularly 'sleepers' that can be had inexpensively. (I'm particularly fond of silver finishes, as they can be polished up to a rather nice appearance with nothing more than some time and elbow grease.)
She doesn't like jazz, her forte is Romantic, lyrical, if this helps in the selection for tone. (Of course, pit orchestras play the books, whatever it is that's written. But Romantic is her preference. Non-jazz on a tenor sax? Is this Heresy or what?)
I know little about saxophones, and I can't say that she knows enough either to be entirely sure about which keywork style might be best for her. There's entirely too much variation in the 'operating systems' out there to suit me. (That's the trumpet player in me coming out!) Something too old/weird/clunky/stiff would probably not be a great choice. Need expert advice there.
I did drag home a nickel-plated Martin stencil C melody, LP. It was cheap, and I knew what I was getting. I tried to pass it off as a B♭ tenor (because of the neck) that I 'got a real deal on' at the junkque store. For some reason, she did not find this as amusing as I did! She won't touch it.
She's quite careful with her instruments, we have no need for the extra durability of a 'student' horn. She's taken the same five-figures-worth of persnickety wooden double reed instruments to her gigs for years, with never any damage.
Your mainstream Yamaha? OK I guess, but leaves me rather cold. Your Selmer Mark VI? Nice, I'm sure. Won't pay for it! Your 1940's "Le Boeuf" silver-plated oddity that's well built, in decent shape, and plays superbly after being tuned up? Well hello there!
I am mechanically handy, though with no experience as an instrument tech. I can/do work on small stuff all the time. Usually successfully. I once re-padded my mother's old Conn clarinet, well enough to suit her anyway. A bent (sat-upon?) Gemeinhardt M2 flute that I picked up as a challenge now plays, or so I'm told, and you can hardly see the repairs. A horn with a few challenges to sort out doesn't scare me, if they're reasonable.
Recent horns that have turned up locally are Antigua Winds, Yamaha, and "ITO" (Vito?). I know AW is new and cheap-ish, but I've been reading that they're not actually bad choices. I suspect the one we didn't get that sold for $350 (before we could call) would probably have been satisfactory, the price certainly was. Not very satisfying to my penchant for oddities, unless you consider a decently-built Chinese horn to be an oddity, but if it worked well at a good price...
Well, any suggestions?
Selmer Mark VII (1st model after the Mark VI) (Potential for increase in value)and
Almost any Yanagisawa, (These are really good horns, very well made) (many Vito models were made by Yanagisawa)
Yamaha YTS 62
Yamaha YTS 52
B&S (last choice, but they made some good horns)
Yamaha 61 and 52 seriesThere were others, see the thread for the rest. Some probably even meet my criteria, which I tried hard to spell out.
Antigua Winds
Vito
B&S
Vintage Pre-1963 Bueschers
Pre-1978 Buescher 400's
Vintage Conn 10M tenors, 6M altos, 12M baritones
Several Shop brands from Kessler & Son Music
Vintage "The Martin"
Keilwerth Stencils (Bundy Special, Couf, etc...)
CE Winds
Possibly a used Phil Barone
Yanigisawa Stencils
Pierret
And many others.......
She'd said that she'd heard that older Martins were good saxes, yet for not too much money, so I'd concentrated most on those. (I found a nice-looking silver Handcraft, but it was from '28 and Jill said its keywork design would be too old and clunky and that I should stick to post-War. Sigh.) Anyway, we'd missed out on a local decently-priced $350 Antigua Winds sax that, though Chinese, is reputed to be surprisingly decent for the money. Next up locally was this Vito, and they were willing to take our offer.
ITO tenor sax in great condition. Purchased new, used 3 years, well maintained. Includes hard case in great condition and 2 mouthpieces: Selmer Tenor C* S-80 & Rovner ligature C-2R. Sax, mouthpieces, reeds, and case $575.
We got it for $450. The second mouthpiece is actually a metal Berg Larsen 110-1-M, also with what appears to be a Rovner fabric ligature. There was a third mouthpiece in the case: the original Vito 4C. The half-dozen or so reeds are Vandoren 3's and Hemke (Rico) 3.5's, there's also a nice neck strap and some cleaning supplies. Ready to play, from all appearances. Not bad-looking at all. Near as we can tell it was made by Yamaha, in Japan.
Supposedly bought new by the previous owners as the upgrade horn for one of their children who used it through school, mostly for jazz, and then stopped. They were cleaning house.
It's kind of a bland (to me) horn, a very prosaic end to the exciting hunt for buried treasure, but it is supposedly quite capable. I was looking forward to some really interesting vintage horn, but I guess you can't have everything! The upgrade mouthpieces and ligatures alone would cost around $330 retail, so I suppose this was a pretty good deal, if she can make use of them.
It has been suggested that the Selmer mouthpiece might work a bit better with a C** or D facing, which is something that can be done to the C*, and that for pit work she might consider swapping the Berg Larsen for a Link Tone Edge 6. Things to consider.
Jill thought it wasn't playing quite right, due to the neck vent, so she took it in to the shop. He tweaked it a bit, pronounced it good, and sent her on her way—no charge.
Update: Wednesday, May 6, 2009. The missing valve button inserts were annoying to me, and I had an idea. I checked, and .410 shotgun brass bases were a close fit for the missing inserts. I cut the rims off of three of them and sanded them down until they nestled into the buttons, then glued them in place with dabs of Shoe Goo. Voila! Instant button inserts. Well, I think it looks better! Images: Before, and After.
eBay description:
Up for auction is this Conn Director trumpet, in case, #759XXX. I would say for its age this trumpet is in poor to fair condition. I say poor because it will at least need new varnish. All of the slides move freely, the plungers move up and down. I do not have a mouth piece for this trumpet. I do not see any major dents on the trumpet, but I am sure there are smaller ones. I am not a horn player, or any type of expert on horns. Because of this item's age and condition I am going to sell it as-is for parts or to fix. If you have any questions please ask before you bid.Good luck!
Auction images:
| In case | Bell, side | Valves | |||
| Right side | Receiver | Bell |
When the horn came it looked pretty good. One small dent in the bow, and the receiver is cocked slightly. The bell rim has minor deformation, but you have to look closely to see it. Probably mildly dropped a few times. The slides all worked well, as did the valves; the valve caps all come loose easily. It played fine with a flugelhorn mouthpiece (all I had that would fit). Pretty good, altogether, only the lacquer condition looks bad. The case is labeled "LAUSD" and "ELEM ORCH.", no doubt vestiges of its former life. The horn is also 'engraved' with these (and its serial number) along the bell flare. I bid on and won an old Conn 4 cornet mouthpiece from eBay ($8), when it came it looked plenty good enough and played, so now this horn has a permanent mouthpiece in the case.
Oh, and the nephew decided to play violin.
I queried TPIN about the relative merits of these two student horns, and got back a couple of replies:
A King Cleveland 600 from that vintage is a great deal @$50.00. That was my first horn, and I used it through college (for marching only) until it was stolen. (I marched with my Bach afterward). They were solidly built, played in tune and had a pretty easy blow. In fact, most of the folks who I grew up with played Kings as their beginning horn. The 7C mouthpiece was standard.
and, regarding the Brasso and rattle-can lacquer idea:
Actually, I'd just strip off what remains of the lacquer and acquire the taste for raw brass instruments. It's cheaper, doesn't affect the playing any, and people grow into finding it cool looking. Makes any subsequent repairs or modifications easy because you don't have to worry about lacquer.My $100 Olds Ambassador trumpet, the one I lend and play in hazardous places, is like that and it's great.
My mother really got taken on this one. We think she found it at a thrift shop, she bought it for her granddaughter. It needed work, so she took it to the local music store where they put more into it than it was worth. (They restrung it, and I think the bridge fell off and needed repair.) I don't think she recognized that it was a Wal-mart First Act axe that cost maybe $70 new. (I bet the shop sure did!) I know she wasn't happy about the repair bill, which was quite possibly more than that, and certainly was more than she paid for the guitar in the first place. This is, I think, the same shop that sold her the Conn trumpet and its mate for somewhat inflated prices oh so many years ago.
Granddaughter was thrilled, but I guess was not exhibiting the degree of care that such a fine instrument deserved. Mom had said that the guitar was to stay there, but that granddaughter could play it whenever she visited. This was supposedly understood. Pre-teen granddaughter tried to abscond with it anyway, and there was a bit of an altercation at the time when she tried to go out the door with it. With the family troubles that followed this never got resolved, and then Mom died. Dad vowed that granddaughter would never see the thing again (he can hold a grudge in the face of disrespect, and granddaughter can have quite a mouth on her), and so it has come to live with us. (She's outgrown it by now, anyway.)
On a positive note (!) Daniel seems quite taken with it. He hauled it around the house, carefully (he's quite a different sort than his cousin), and played us a number of his own compositions: Timber Termites, etc. It was very cute, I think Dad was pleased, I know Mom sure would have been. It's nice to have some positive associations with the thing. I tuned it so that it at least played notes that sounded chord-like and together (I don't know how to tune a guitar, and I didn't bother to look in the book that came with it) before Daniel's 'concert'. That helped a fair bit. Daniel was rhyming, some of the words were rather clever, and he was even singing in tune with the strings. Maybe a lesson or two and he'd know how to hold it, and what the frets are for. I'm sorry Jill missed it.
